Ep. 12: Amaryllis Gryllaki – Commodity Sales Director at Wells Fargo

Amaryllis: Most of the group was in Houston, and I was tasked with building out a precious metals franchise from start. So I figured it'd be A, better to be close to the decision makers that could help me do my job better, and B, an opportunity to try something other than New York.

Tarek: Welcome to Y'all Street. Today, I speak with Amaryllis Gryllaki, Commodity Sales Director at Wells Fargo. Amaryllis, would you like a cup of coffee?

Amaryllis: I would love one. Hey!

Tarek: You like that?

Amaryllis: Love it.

Tarek: Little Amaryllis flowers, coffee cheers.

Amaryllis: Not everybody knows it's a flower.

Tarek: Funny you should say that, because I felt wildly uneducated when I realized that after knowing you for a year, I had no idea that an Amaryllis was a flower. And my wife educated me on that, and so I thought it would be appropriate to get a little Amaryllis coffee cups.

Amaryllis: Love it. My parents actually chose the name because they wanted something neutral. I was the firstborn on my mom's side of the family, and they didn't want to offend any family members. So they chose a name that nobody in the family, let alone Grace, had thought about. So, yeah.

Tarek: And it's made you very memorable in the industry because you're the only person in the entire precious metals industry with the name Amaryllis.

Amaryllis: It's like Rihanna. One word. I don't even say my last name anymore.

Tarek: So if you were a musician, you'd have a one-name act.

Amaryllis: Exactly.

Tarek: It's South Texas. It's the middle of July. You're based in Houston. How did you end up in Houston? Especially being part of a bullion bank with Wells Fargo. Most people think that all the bullion banks are in New York and London. How'd you end up here?

Amaryllis: It actually started with COVID. So I've traveled around a lot, but during COVID, obviously New York was one of the places that was hit the most. And I was so stuck in there. And at the same time as COVID hit, a month later, Bank of Nova Scotia shut down their metals franchise. And they asked me to stay on along with a colleague to unwind the business for six months. And so at the time, I was stuck. Everybody had their bubbles. There were only a few people you could interact with. So I started traveling and I went to Montana for a month.

Tarek: Where in Montana did you go?

Amaryllis: Billings.

Tarek: That's an interesting location. Not Bozeman, not Missoula.

Amaryllis: Not Bozeman, Billings. One of my best friends lives there. And so I went and stayed with her and her family for a month and I loved it. We did so much hiking and so much outdoor stuff. And then I came back to New York and COVID wasn't over. And then I went to Florida to, what was it? Fort Lauderdale for a month. And I did an Airbnb and worked out of there. And then I came back and it still wasn't over. So I realized at the time I could do my job out of everywhere. And New York, while it had been a huge part of my life and I'd been there for nine years, it was just coming to an end of a chapter. So when Bank of Nova Scotia shut down and I had the next six months to think about it, one of the things I considered was being somewhere other than New York. And at the time I was like, what bank is going to hire me to do this business out of anywhere other than New York? And I was speaking to a few banks and the options were limited. What was thrown out was Toronto, Denver, and Houston. And I was like, okay, Toronto, no, that's way too close to New York. But maybe I'll consider the other two. And through a lot of a lot of discussions, I went to work with Wells Fargo and I stayed in New York for a year just to make sure I understood the bank. I understood the business. I liked the team. I could work with what they had. And then I just decided to move on down to Texas. Most of the group was in Houston and I was tasked with building out a precious metals franchise from start. So I figured it'd be A, better to be close to the decision makers that could help me do my job better and B, an opportunity to try something other than New York. So I moved here just over actually three years ago.

Tarek: So I want to get back to the Texas story because there's a lot there. But first I want to try to understand a little bit better because I know our listeners in particular are going to be really interested in the activities of Wells Fargo in the bullion business. Very few people are aware that Wells does anything with precious metals. Everybody's familiar with the branches they see on every corner. So talk about bullion banking and what it is that you do, what role Wells Fargo plays and kind of what this journey has been.

Amaryllis: So it's worth taking a step back and mentioning that this is actually the fifth bank I've worked at. And the other banks that I had worked at were far better known in the space. But Wells Fargo was the first, actually the second American bank I worked for. But you're right, it's mostly known for its consumer banking presence. And it grew through many acquisitions into what it is today. But the reality is that they've spent the last five, ten years growing out the investment banking presence as well with our new CEO coming on as well. So it was a part of the business that they hadn't historically focused on, precious metals specifically, but commodities in general had been around for two decades. And the reason we had been around for that long was because Wells was one of the largest lenders to the upstream energy space. And the investment banking side wanted to be able to help those companies proactively manage their risk exposure. So we started with our energy desk actually in Dallas. And we were there for a while. And then we also had people in Charlotte, we had people in San Francisco, and then they consolidated everybody into Houston. And then about-

Tarek: Why Houston and not Dallas since you already had a presence in Texas?

Amaryllis: Because our bankers were split across both locations. So no particularly great reason that I'm aware of. And then they just started tacking on capabilities, new products. And a lot of it was reverse client driven in the sense that, like you said, we are very focused on corporate and consumer banking. So a lot of our clients were coming to us and saying, hey, do you do base metals? Do you do ags? Do you do consumer energy, natural gas? And we just started tacking things on as needed. And then about a decade ago, the first client asked us for precious metals. And at the time, it hadn't even been contemplated. And we at the time had a very lean team. And they were very entrepreneurial. And they made it happen. They did their first precious metals deal. But there wasn't a lot of focus on growing it out too much until they saw an opportunity with Bank of Nova Scotia shutting down. And that's when they decided to reach out and say, hey, we need some who can build this thing from scratch. We have the balance sheet to deploy. And would you be interested in coming and building out the business? So I brought a team over. And since then, it's grown one direction. And we're still trending in the right direction, thankfully. And this has been a great year to do that.

Tarek: Which we're going to get into in a little bit. But we have loads of customers that buy precious metals. And they're on X and in social media. And they hear about the bullion banks. And oftentimes, there's some negative connotations associated with the bullion banks. And there have been stories about JP Morgan. Actually, JP Morgan has had to pay big fines being in the space. But I'm not sure that everybody really understands what a bullion bank does. And when it comes to offering financing to the industry and the role that the bullion banks play at the upper echelons of metals trading, can you walk our listeners through that process, what it is that you do, who you're interfacing with, how you put positions on, how you take positions off?

Amaryllis: I could probably spend hours talking about this.

Tarek: Perfect opportunity.

Amaryllis: I think it's important to say that there's different types of bullion banks. And they each have different strengths and weaknesses. So you have bullion banks that are able to clear metal on behalf of clients and issue electronic credits, much like Benbo. And then you have other banks that don't focus on that component of it. But they more so focus on the risk management slash financing portfolio, which is where we step in.

Tarek: So I'm going to dive into the jargon just a little bit. So when you say clear metal, explain that to people.

Amaryllis: So just like you would be looking to send money to your company that has your home mortgage in the same manner as you would issue that wire or ACH transfer, we would issue the equivalent in gold or silver credits to arrive at either an intermediate step where fabrication is done or to the end consumer of that product. So if you think about it, and this is one of the cool things about precious metals, is that it touches so many different industries. So if you look at our clients, if you look at the people we talk to every day, it could be oil and gas companies that have platinum and palladium in their catalysts that are used to break down crude into refined products. It could be chemical companies that use silver and rhodium to manufacture end consumer chemicals. It could be jewelry companies that are using it in the manufacture of nice jewelry. It could be depositories that are storing metal. It could be coin dealers that are selling metal either at a wholesale level or a retail level. It could be beverage can companies that use palladium as a coating to the actual can. It could be companies that use a gold target to create shiny windows in Vegas. It spans the gamut of what you're able to do, and that's just the corporate space. We're not even talking about the asset managers, the central banks, the regional banks, the end consumers, the investment interest, the retail interest. So there's so many people that have an interest in it, and we're there to really service the whole gamut of clients. And they each have individual needs. So it could be that they just want to do a risk management, I don't want to call it passive, but I'll say just the standard vanilla, they buy a cash settled swap just to protect against the risk of rising prices because they use gold, but they just want to hedge it financially. But it could be that they want us to step in, procure the metal for them, ship it to their facility, and then finance it for them while it's going through their work in process to the finished good level where they sell it on to the consumer, get dollars, and then pay us back. Or it could be that they have somebody who will provide them the metal, but they want us to step in and send that electronic transfer at that stage, at that intermediate stage, to their supplier, and then the supplier will outturn the end product and send it to them to be used as a finished good or to be fabricated separately, additional to that.

Tarek: So it's interesting because most businesses will use lines of credit to finance whip inventory or any standing inventory. In the precious metal space, that's not the case traditionally, particularly if you're dealing with any kind of volume. Explain to the listeners why that's the case and what impact that has on interest rates.

Amaryllis: So typically, a client can access different types of lines of credit. They can access a traditional LC that's a finite amount of time or over a one-year tenor. They can access commercial paper if they have short-term needs. They can use a term loan revolver. There's various solutions on the cash side. But what they can also do is use financing provided by the underlying metal as collateral. And the reason that a lot of companies that are metal centric tend to be attracted to that is because it's oftentimes, oftentimes I'd like to point out because this year it's been bananas, but oftentimes it's the cheaper alternative way to finance their whip and also align their whip to the various stages of entry and output. And the reason that cheaper is because when they enter into a financing solution, they're actually able to use the contango nature of a commodity product. So stepping back a contango is when the spot is lower than the futures market. So in order for us as a bank to give them metal financing, we would go in and we would borrow metal. Well, actually we would borrow dollars and then we would borrow metal and we would give them that metal for a period of time. And by borrowing that metal, we're actually locking in that contango and that contango serves as a reduction slash discount to their cost of financing. So when a bank evaluates, using the same credit spread across multiple products, being able to finance metal often tends to be far cheaper than it does with financing in dollars.

Tarek: And the futures market affords the bank that opportunity to be able to discount that interest to the customer. And so, you know, for those listening, the role that the bullion banks play in the industry is immense because the amount of inventory that a company like ours or any of the big precious metals companies is holding at any given time can be enormous. So the interest rate, the carry cost of a lot of that inventory can have a huge impact on profitability. So if we can work with the bullion banks to help discount that interest rate, you know, it's imperative for us to be able to have the amount of inventory we need to service the marketplace. So you mentioned that this year in particular has been wild and crazy. We were talking before the podcast saying that, you know, as you talk to your banking friends, it's like, when is this going to end? Because with the tariffs and the wild swings in contango and the carry trade and the tariffs and everything that's happening in the global markets, it has been a real struggle. So talk us through that process over the last six months.

Amaryllis: I don't even know where to begin. I mean, the reality is it hasn't been six months. It really started when president then nominee Trump was on the cards for a second term because what he does better than most is introduce volatility into the system. And that volatility, you know, it started as a positive momentum heading into the election and heading into year end. But the reality is, as the narrative started coming through on tariffs and approaches to international strategy and diplomatic affairs, he left so little clarity on the table that people didn't know how to manage their risk. They didn't know if they would have availability to metal, to ample supply, to be able to address their client base. So typically when a bank in a natural position, a bank is constantly long physical metal in order to be able to give that to their clients. And as a hedge against the physical metal, they're short futures. And there's multiple ways that they can address those futures positions. But one of the ways that they tend to do that is to be able to bring in metal from London, which is the larger OTC exchange equivalent platform that banks deal with and ship it internationally to New York and settle their obligations on futures. And when president Trump came into the picture and started speaking about potential tariffs, people didn't know whether or not that would extend into the bullion world. So they didn't know if they would have that supply of bringing metal in at the same cost as before and closing out those positions. And that's what introduced that uncertainty and led to a lot of volatility that we have seen in the last, well, since January is really when it kind of started or actually mid-December. And it hasn't stopped since. There was a period of respite, which we figured it's summertime, everybody wants a break. But now the tariff discussions are back on the table. And it's just opening that lack of clarity again, opening that confusion and having prices and lease rates be all over the place.

Tarek: So give me a specific example recently of some trading challenges that you've been through.

Amaryllis: Oh, gosh. Well, we're very lucky because we have a few traders that are extremely good at what they do. And they're able to be very entrepreneurial. And I do think that in precious metals in general, because it's such a small market and because everybody knows everybody, you have to be entrepreneurial. You have to be able to pick up the phone and call five to 10 people to help you get whatever job you need done.

Tarek: And this is a very relationship-driven business.

Amaryllis: Extremely. Extremely so. So the struggles are being there for the client and trying to talk them through the day-to-day of how much these swings can be. Because the spot price moves on its own fundamentals and its own drivers versus the lease rate. And many clients sometimes don't understand that the two don't have to be correlated. And the two necessarily are not correlated. So spot price could be going through the roof 3% up on the day and the lease rate is steady or vice versa. So trying to have those discussions with clients has been the most challenging part. And one of the questions that they'll ask is, well, when will the lease rate come down again? And the fact is, you're looking at two unknowns. You're looking at the cost of borrowing dollars and you're looking at the cost of borrowing metal. And each has its completely own different set of drivers. And so it's like looking at two crystal balls and not making the numbers come to term.

Tarek: Yeah. What's interesting is you just mentioned a few moments ago that when the market is in contango, that's an advantage for the bullion banks and their customers because it acts as basically a discount to a standard interest rate. But what happens is that the market can also go into backwardation, where the front month contract is higher than the future contracts. And then the reverse is true, that actually the lease rates can exceed what would be like a standard line of credit. And those swings can happen in the span of a few days. So you're a major company in the bullion space and you're sitting on, say, $50 million worth of inventory and an attractive lease rate. And then three days later, that same inventory is now working against you. And it puts you in a position where you might have to liquidate a large percentage of your holdings at any given time. The backwardation aspect of this is, correct me if I'm wrong, but this happens because the banks are concerned about tariffs in the future. So they're pulling forward demand on the physical side into the front month, which raises the price of the front month contract. Is that right?

Amaryllis: Yeah. So they're just changing the shape of the curve by trying to pull in metal earlier. So they're worried about short-term supply. And when they do that, yes, it bumps up the futures month more so than the back end of the month. And that's what we try to tell clients oftentimes is, when you're looking at considering financing in dollars versus financing in metals, you can't look at it on a short-term basis. Because short-term, 9 out of 10 times, it will look great. But 1 out of 10 times, it will look terrible. And it just depends where you get in and where you get out. So you really have to look at it over a long-term period of time, because commodities is cyclical. And you do have to have that lens on in order to make sure that it's still net-net positive for you when you compare it versus your weighted average capital cost.

Tarek: Are you always trying to keep a neutral exposure to the market? Or are you taking long and short positions on behalf of the bank?

Amaryllis: So we are usually holding inventory, depending on what we think our clients will need at any given time. And our positions are driven by that. So it just depends. If we have clients in the US and we think that they're going to need high-purity silver, we're going to have more of that. If we have clients in Europe and we think that they're going to need sponge platinum palladium, we hold more of that. So all of our trading is driven around having inventory available for our client needs.

Tarek: But that inventory is on your balance sheet. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you're taking full exposure to the price movement. So are you trying to keep your price exposure at par, basically? Let's say it's silver and you have $10 billion worth of silver on the balance sheet. Are you taking $10 billion in short positions on the other side to price out the risk? Or are you taking long positions or short positions in the market? How does that work?

Amaryllis: We typically look at spreads, whether it's month-to-month spreads or whether it's location spreads. We will look at those fundamental deviations. But we do have really tough risk parameters in terms of what we are able to take risk on and what we're not able to. So whatever we are able to put on is usually driven by market risk, by liquidity, by availability to financing and inventory, by exchange limits, et cetera. So typically, we will hedge most of our positions. And then we'll trade around that as needed.

Tarek: OK. I recently saw on X some data that stated that the banks are net short 50% open interest in silver. We already know that we have a structural deficit in silver. What does that mean? And how should people look at that as it relates to price? I mean, silver has skyrocketed. It's up another 15% in the last couple of weeks. And yet, the banks are 50% net short open interest. How is that to be interpreted?

Amaryllis: I think that ultimately, you have to look at it as a combination of your futures positions and your OTC slash physical positions. So just because a bank may or may not be short on the futures doesn't mean that they're short across the board. It typically means that they're long on the physical end of it. And the reality is, like you said, it's in a deficit because there is demand there. So we're constantly long that physical because our consumers want that.

Tarek: So another way of interpreting that is it is very likely that the amount of metal on the bank's balance sheets is higher than normal. And that's being reflected in the net short position?

Amaryllis: It could be on any one given metal. But you would have to look at all the metals combined in terms of what the net position is, right?

Tarek: So this tariff question remains hanging over the head of everybody in the industry. Do you have a perspective on how you think this will play out? Do you anticipate that over the next couple of weeks, things will settle down? You mentioned it's like a respite that we had a couple of months ago. Or I guess I'm curious what the water cooler talk is.

Amaryllis: I think that for better or worse, we had the COVID pandemic experience in 2020. And it was a situation that had never been tested before, kind of like a fire drill. What happens if you need to exit the building? In this case, it was what happens if you don't have access to the metal that you need? So I think that banks, financial institutions, merchants were able to learn a lot from that time. And this time around, they were able to move far quicker. And you notice that in the way that the AFP traded and the forwards traded in the time that it took contracts and rates to right size again. So I think that, look, as long as President Trump has not finished his negotiations, then anything is on the table. When those completed discussions emerge, I think that's when things will calm down. It would be handy. You know, there's still inconsistencies as to whether or not investment-grade bullying is entirely tariff-proof. So that would help if that was addressed. But I think in general, the market will calm down again once focus pivots to something else other than tariffs.

Tarek: What would happen if there were tariffs? Let's just say, you know, all inbound precious metals in the United States are now tariffed at, make up a number, 10%. What would happen to the market?

Amaryllis: I mean, ultimately, it would just make everybody's job a little bit harder. It would be passed down to the end consumer because it would have to be. There are clients that, different clients have addressed this environment completely on their own terms. And there's no right or wrong solution because you don't know what you're dealing with. We're in unprecedented territory. But that said, at the end of the day, if metal costs more to bring over the pond and have it here, then that will be reflected in the rates that are provided to the end client.

Tarek: So pivoting a little bit, your current role at Wells Fargo, you're the Commodity Sales Director. So what is your role day to day? You know, you get in the office on Monday and, you know, Friday at 5 p.m., how do you know if you've had a good week?

Amaryllis: That's a great question. How do I know whether or not I've had a good week? So currently the role is business development. It's to lead our team to come up with where we're headed next, how we can address where we are now, how we can best cover our client base, and what opportunities for growth there are. The day to day job in and of itself changes every single day in terms of what the focus is. It could be a client that we need to drop everything on and focus on them because they're changing something internally and they need help to have those discussions with their management and explain the importance of those precious metals projects to their management. It could be coordinating with other parts of the bank and having those discussions and engaging everybody internally so they understand what products we're able to offer. When I first came in, I mean, if you think about it, there's 205,000 bankers for Wells Fargo. It's a lot of people to educate and each one has its own sort of system that they don't really go outside of. We've got our retail presence, we've got our consumer, we've got our commercial banking, our corporate banking, our investment banking, middle market banking, our wealth management, and they're each their own pods. So nobody talks to anybody else, which means it's our job to make sure we're talking to everybody across the board. So a lot of the day to day unfortunately goes to having internal discussions more so than having the external client discussions because you want to make sure that everybody knows what the bank is capable of. And then hopefully on good days, you're only talking to clients and prospective and prospects, etc. Helping the team navigate any questions that they have, etc.

Tarek: And how is this role the same or different from your prior experience? You mentioned that you worked for five other banks before Wells Fargo. Walk us through that journey a little bit coming out of school and step by step, how have the roles changed and what have you learned along the way?

Amaryllis: So I obviously did not wake up one day and decide I wanted to be in commodities. It did not happen.

Tarek: That wasn't that wasn't your girlhood dream?

Amaryllis: That was not. I wanted to be in intelligence, slight deviation. But I ended up graduating a year early from college and I came out and because I had graduated so early, I didn't have a job lined up and I didn't have a master's program lined up and I wasn't sure which direction I wanted to take.

Tarek: Did you study finance in school?

Amaryllis: I did.

Tarek: This is at University of Illinois?

Amaryllis: Champaign-Urbana. And so I came out and then I graduated in May, went and did summer in Greece as I usually do. And then I came back and hit the ground running and started applying to jobs. And at the time, Citibank was doing an analyst program for their operations team. And that was based in London. And I was like, well, that seems really neat. It gives me an opportunity to go and travel and do everything I want to do in my 20s. And so I applied to that and I applied to loads of jobs because I remember it just the timing was so not ideal. So I just kept getting rejection after rejection after rejection. I was like, oh, my God. And then they called me up and they're like, come on a plane. We want to interview you. And I headed over there. And thankfully, I also had some best friends that were studying at London School of Economics. So I had things to do. I spent a week there and I had fun and I saw the city of London and I interviewed. It was a full day thing. And then I left and then I kept interviewing with other places because I hadn't heard back. And then one day they called me and they're like, OK, you know, we've narrowed it down from 600 people to 10 people and you're one of them. We'd love to have you join the team. And so I moved to the UK when I was.

Tarek: What was that feeling like were you doing, you know, jumping jacks and in the apartment or the dorm or.

Amaryllis: I think it was just unreal. Like I called my mom and I told her and she was like, OK, does that mean you're headed across the pond? So it was unreal because the reality is I hadn't even turned 21 and I was packing my bags to move to London from Chicago. So it was just a weird transition period. But I was super psyched. So I moved to London and I started working at Citibank and I did a few rotations and the third rotation I did was commodities. And I just loved how the I love the atmosphere. Everybody was young and entrepreneurial and they were having fun and they were building a business and it was just a great time to be there. And then global financial crisis hit.

Tarek: What a great experience that was

Amaryllis: That was that it was definitely surreal, like looking out the window in Canary Wharf and seeing the building across was Lehman's. So seeing people walk out with monitors and you're just like, hmm, this is interesting. And I was so young that I don't think I realized that my job was at risk. But thankfully, commodities is its own beast. It doesn't trade like other things. It's very cyclical.

Tarek: Now, was this precious metals or other commodities?

Amaryllis: So I was running our precious metal settlements team at the time. So it was exactly what we were talking about before. Bank A tells Bank B move 200 ounces of gold to the account of XYZ. And it was just managing that component of it. And then I did that for four years and I was spending a lot of time coordinating between front office and back office. And front office was like, why are you not in sales? And I was like, oh, I'm not a salesperson. And they were like, you spend a lot of time here. You might want to reconsider that. So I tried to move internally. But at the time, there was just a stigma about moving people from operations role into sales and trading. And they didn't want to change the rules on that. So I moved over to Deutsche Bank because they had no qualms about that. And I started sales at Deutsche Bank.

Tarek: So when you say you moved over, were you recruited by Deutsche Bank? Or did you start sending out resumes? What was that transition like?

Amaryllis: I honestly can't remember. Because at the same time, I was also doing my master's program part time. So I was just trying to beef up my resume and make myself as attractive a candidate as possible to different banks and see what's out there. So I think I had worked with a recruiter at the time. And that opportunity came up.

Tarek: I mean, this is an incredibly ambitious time in your life. So you're not even 21. You've moved across the pond. You've taken on your first career experience. You're leading a team. And you're getting your master's degree at night and going through the great financial crisis through all of it.

Amaryllis: Yeah. Well, it was global financial crisis and then three years of me stepping into that management role and doing my master's program.

Tarek: Yeah. Were you overwhelmed, stressed? What was that period of your life like?

Amaryllis: I was having a lot of fun. It was so much fun.

Tarek: You still had time to have fun.

Amaryllis: I still somehow had time to have fun. I had a lot of energy. I was traveling around a lot with my friends and my colleagues. And it was just a great period to get everything that you wanted to accomplish done. But when I pivoted over to that second bank role, that was where I had my first encounter with real life, because the role itself wasn't in London anymore. So I had at that time been in London for four and a half years. And the role was in Birmingham, which is an hour and a half outside London. And Birmingham is very, very different to London. So it was leaving everything that I had created over four and a half years and headed into the unknown, into a completely different role that I hadn't been tested in, in a city that I didn't want to be in just because it wasn't what I was used to, and removing that safety network that I had created. So it was very different. And then it was also at the time, Deutsche Bank was, they were experimenting with the concept of near shore offices in the sense that can somebody in do the job that a person in London can do for less money, and just as well. So the incentive of the team in London wasn't there to educate me. Because I, in a sense, they saw it as I'm there to take their job, which wasn't how I saw it, because I was just learning how to do things.

Tarek: Now, if I remember correctly, during that period, I mean, Deutsche Bank was going through like a real sort of existential crisis. I mean, the stock price had fallen dramatically, it was suffering in the wake of the GFC. What was that like being there? Was it, was the environment toxic? Was it still positive?

Amaryllis: So it was probably, so I was at Deutsche Bank for two years. And it was probably a year before that started, before it started its existential crisis. So at the time, I was just super focused on learning everything I could about, and at the time, it wasn't even precious metals at the time, it was energy, and freight, and iron ore, and base metals, and pretty much everything. I was also a test case in a general product set rather than knowing one market really well. So I was just in full absorption mode. And then I didn't, when it started, when that existential crisis started, like it was already too late for us. Because by that time, I had turned around to my manager, I'd been there two years, I had said, hey, move me to New York or back to London. They moved me to New York. And then within five months, everything kind of happened sequentially. They shut down commodities. My whole group lost their job. And so I didn't have time to stew on that a lot. But then the news kept coming out about Deutsche and how it's changing things, and what everybody had been focusing on. And yeah, it was two parallel paths going on.

Tarek: So the timing of the move to New York was fortuitous. And at that point, you had been in England for about five years, six years. And were you ready to leave?

Amaryllis: I think that I could have stayed or I could have gone. I couldn't have stayed in Birmingham. I could have gone back to London or I could have come closer to home. And the reality is my family was split between Chicago and Greece. So I had incentive in either scenario. But for whatever reason, I think I just said, I want to be closer to my parents. So move me to New York. And it just felt like another closing chapter, so to speak. Although I never felt like I'm American or I'm British or just because I had absorbed so many different cultures. So it was just keep the friends that I had.

Tarek: And you were born in Greece.

Amaryllis: And I was born in Greece.

Tarek: And you're fluent in Greek. And so you have that aspect to your life as well.

Amaryllis: So lots of moving around. But it was the first time that I had gotten laid off with zero notice. They asked us to hop on a call at 7 in the morning. And it was over in 10 minutes. And then we're like, huh. And ironically, I had a vacation planned to Costa Rica the next day. So it actually worked out perfectly. I could enjoy my holiday. But then the reality kind of dawns on you that you've just moved countries, not even cities. You've fully moved countries. And the network that you had built up in London is no longer there. So at that point, I had to determine whether or not I was going to interview New York or whether or not I was going to interview in London. And I ended up doing both because I didn't know how it would land. But at the time, TD Bank was looking to grow their team. And I went and I joined there. And that's where I was for the next four and a half years.

Tarek: And what was your role there? What was the experience like?

Amaryllis: So the role there was to grow out base metals. But the team that was there was primarily precious metals. So by virtue of my surroundings, I learned a lot about precious metals, especially on the physical side.

Tarek: Around what year was this?

Amaryllis: 2014.

Tarek: Okay.

Amaryllis: Yeah.

Tarek: So this is an interesting time, again, kind of connecting back to your Greek connection. Greece went through its financial crisis in 2015. So you're working at TD Bank, your friends and family are back home going through the Greek financial crisis. What can you tell me about that? I mean, obviously, we heard the news here in the States and get filtered information, but what was it like boots on the ground?

Amaryllis: I think that Greece is a wonderful country. It's a beautiful country. And I think there's a lot of reasons you'd love to be there. But the reality is that they had been going through something unsustainable for a long period of time. And it was very, I mean, as it unwound, it had to come to the point that it did once we had joined the EU. So you've got a bunch of different countries that are type A country, let's call it. And we'll call those the northern countries. And then you have a bunch of different countries that are type B country, the southern countries. And once you join a union of those two types, there's bound to be clashes in economics and political and all that. So I think that the other interesting thing about Greece is that it's, I believe, incredibly entrepreneurial. Most of my family have their own businesses.

Tarek: Interesting.

Amaryllis: Had their own businesses.

Tarek: So is it more of a micro entrepreneurial nature where it's local family owned businesses versus like what we see in the United States with the large conglomerates crossing state lines? OK.

Amaryllis: Yeah. So thankfully, because they are all entrepreneurial, they all managed to and they're all incredibly hardworking. They were able to get through it just fine. But that's not to say that was the case for a lot of people there. So very, very different.

Tarek: And what are the businesses that your family runs over there?

Amaryllis: So I have a lot of engineers, a lot of architects, doctors, military, etc.

Tarek: Interesting. But your background says that you were working since you were 13 in Greek restaurants. So was that sort of a U.S. phenomenon when you came over the U.S.? I guess walk me through that. So you were you were born in Greece and at age six, your family moved to Chicago.

Amaryllis: At age six, we moved to East Lansing, Michigan.

Tarek: OK. That seems a little random.

Amaryllis: It was random. It was where my mom got her visa for work because back then physical therapists were in demand and they still are now. And so that's where the job posting was.

Tarek: And so that's where we what was the motive for leaving Greece? Why not just do physical therapy in Greece?

Amaryllis: I think that if you've noticed something about me is that I'm incredibly restless and I keep moving all the time. And I think that comes from my parents as a hereditary trait. And I think that they just wanted to see what else was out there. And they were the first ones on both sides of their families to want to do that, to want to explore. So it was a kind of an experiment, so to speak. And so we went to East Lansing for two years and then we went to East Grand Rapids for two years. And then they missed home. And our whole family back home was like, why are you not here? Why are you all the way there?

Tarek: So what was it like for you at age six leaving Greece? And did you speak any English at all when you came to the States?

Amaryllis: I was studying the last six months prior to coming here. And I was taking first grade there. And then I went instantly into second grade here. And I could not understand anything. The great thing is as a six-year-old, your mind is like a sponge. So I was just talking nonsense for six months. And then it just kind of switched on and I was able to communicate. Honestly, I thought I was really excited because in Greece, you spent your time watching American television. So I was watching Little House on the Prairie and thinking that we were coming to a farm, which I was really excited about, that would have ponies. And that was not the case. But overall, it was a fun experience and I was looking forward to it. So then we went back to Greece because my parents missed it. But because we had been away for so long, we'd already become, we'd already been exposed to the American culture. And I think that the clash was just far too great to bring that back to Greece. So we found our way back six months later. But at the time, we went to Chicago because that was where another opportunity was. And that's where my mom had some family as well, some extended family. And one of them owned a restaurant, which is where I started working for fun on weekends.

Tarek: And is that where you kind of grew your love and appreciation for Greek food? Or is that just ingrained from the time that you're very little?

Amaryllis: I think that's ingrained. I did not fully appreciate it though, until I went to England and tried the food there and became sick.

Tarek: Worst food in the world.

Amaryllis: And then realized there's a reason that people love the Mediterranean diet.

Tarek: So you just mentioned a few moments ago that you really pick up and move fairly frequently. I mean, Greece to the United States, back to Greece, back to the US, then to London, then to New York at TD Bank. You have a couple more stops there and then you finally arrive here in Texas. And Texas was very intentional for you as you're saying post-COVID. What about Texas was attractive to you?

Amaryllis: I think it was that I didn't know anything about it. And I had been in the Northeast and the Midwest for so long. So it was nice to try out a completely different culture. And I also miss the sun. So six years in London, I was pale as a ghost. Then I moved to, and also very soggy because it was just raining and all that. So I moved to New York. The weather was much better there. But then I just, I missed the heat. I missed the sun. Maybe that's the Greek in me. I don't know. But I wanted a warmer climate and Houston featured that. So I thought I would give it a go. And then I came here and I was actually very surprised by how quickly I loved it.

Tarek: What about it do you love? What are the cultural observations? And then I want to get into the business observations.

Amaryllis: I think that every city has its own sort of character. And the interesting thing about Houston is that it's the fourth, fourth, fifth largest city in the U.S. It's very Texan in the sense that they're so proud of everything Texas, which is great. But it's also the largest, most diverse city in the U.S. In terms of growth in diversity, it's also the largest city. So you just get a hodgepodge of all different types of peoples. I took a quiz a few days ago for fun. And one of the questions was how many languages are spoken in Houston? And I answered 45. And that was wrong. It was higher.

Tarek: What was the number?

Amaryllis: But I just remember going, I did not know that. But it's just amazing that you go to New York thinking that you would see diversity. And the reality is there is diversity there, but it's also a bit of transient diversity in that New York is a bit of a pit stop for many people. Whereas Houston is just buckets of diversity all around. But at the same time, everybody's rooted in the same sense of we love Texas and we love being here. And you can see that in the people, you can see that in the food. The only thing that it doesn't have is any mountains to go hiking on, except if you're in West Texas. But everything else and the sense of community that doesn't really translate to what is in New York. Maybe in London, that could translate to some extent. But I think the sense of community in Texas is just something I've not experienced since probably Greece.

Tarek: How are the people different?

Amaryllis: I think sun makes people happier.

Tarek: The vitamin D.

Amaryllis: Exactly. But it's also just the stress component of it. One of the reasons that I left New York was I would just feel like every time I land down in New York and get into a yellow cab, your blood pressure instantly goes through the roof. And everybody's just running around trying to accomplish so many important things. And it's hard to take a step back. And it's hard to see yourself away from yourself to evaluate your surrounding. Whereas here, people are still very driven. But I felt like that high pressure wasn't as obvious here.

Tarek: Texas is growing dramatically. We talked a little bit before the podcast that there are now more people in finance in Texas than there are in New York. Dallas is becoming a huge center for hedge funds. Goldman Sachs just relocated there. NASDAQ just opened a regional office. Obviously, the Texas Exchange, NYSE, Texas. Houston has always been known for the port and the commodities trade in oil and gas. Tech is all over Austin. What do you see as the opportunity here? It's now the seventh largest economy in the world, just the state of Texas. And the migration is continuing at an accelerated rate. So what do you see as the opportunity here for Wells Fargo and just in general?

Amaryllis: I think it's so interesting being one of the few banks that has that precious metals presence here. I mean, we have precious metals presence here in New York. But we do have large presence here. And I think it's just interesting in the sense that New York is great for being able to kind of see the big picture and being able to have access to a certain type of fast-paced life. But here, Texas just has so many different types of businesses, small and large. And I feel closer to the ground here, like boots on the ground. You're able to experience that. And people are willing to let you in to see what they built. And in general, I do think that people find it easier to start slash launch a business here. It is a fairly business-friendly state. That said, that's not going to be everybody's opinion. But I do think that lesser hurdles are providing some interest for people that are looking to move.

Tarek: You are, let's say you're speaking to a group of 18 to 22-year-old women who are interested in starting their careers. What is the advice you're going to give to them?

Amaryllis: Gosh, so I've been helping build out our recruitment process for the last two years at Wells. Obviously, selfishly for commodities in Houston, which it's hard to recruit for A, commodities, B, in Houston, which is interesting. Coming from a bank perspective, just because everybody's used to seeing New York. Obviously, we have a presence in San Francisco and Charlotte. So there's other locations that are kind of more top of list slash top of mind for people coming out of college. So it's been really interesting having those conversations and seeing what drives people in college now towards those decisions. But I think in general, the advice that I have been giving to people is just more so to women, just because I would love to see more women in our field. I think that the last few years that has changed, which is great to see specific to commodities. But I'd love to see more women in banking, period. And I think that in reality, you just need to put yourself in a lot of difficult situations. You just need to challenge yourself. You need to keep asking questions. I think that guys versus girls, I think that guys have absolutely zero qualms about making themselves look silly and putting themselves in situations where they have loads of confidence. And women sometimes don't have that. They're not built that way. And I think, you know, being able to display that and coming to the same stages as men would definitely be a lot more.

Tarek: Would you say it's an intimidation factor that women tend to be a little more intimidated in roles that where they're surrounded by other men in a group? And is that something that you had to overcome?

Amaryllis: I mean, I was always surrounded by men at work. Yeah, like 90 to 95 percent of the people I worked with were men. But I was very lucky because I had a lot of good mentors around along the way. And everybody I worked with was amazing. And they would always be there for me if I needed something. So I didn't feel that I was I actually saw it as an advantage in the sense that they would be there giving advice along the way. I think that I don't know if it's an intimidation factor. I think it's just you need to have those discussions much earlier on in age because I don't think obviously as a kid, you don't know what path you want to take. Right. You have zero idea. I wanted to be in the CIA. But there's I think previously there were just roles that were, you know, catered to one versus the other. And there was just some narrative along the way that just got fumbled. And I just think that they need to be looking at opportunities equally, like everything is on the board for everybody. So it's just, you know, what what do you find attractive? Like, do you find do you like a fast paced environment? Do you think you're a good communicator? Like women are great communicators. So I don't think that, you know, from a sales perspective, I think that women are able to kind of be present for conversation and listen to what people are saying and walk away from it and have a completely different set of takeaways than their male equivalent. Neither good nor bad. It's just different takeaways. So having both sides there is so useful. And we just need to make it an environment that is friendly to both. So it'll be great to have feedback from candidates as they do the program, like what would be helpful for both.

Tarek: If someone listening is interested in working on your commodities desk, how would they reach out to? Is LinkedIn a good solution?

Amaryllis: Yes. And I have to say LinkedIn, there's a lot of people, a lot of students that reach out to me on LinkedIn often. So it's still a good way. And obviously our career page on Wells Fargo as well. We have our annual programs that run at crazy long cycles because that's the norm now in college.

Tarek: You mentioned you had some great mentors along the way. What were the characteristics and traits of your mentors that you appreciated the most?

Amaryllis: I think that patience and lack of ego, which is interesting to say that about people in banking, but there are people in banking that do not display an ego or they have an ego, but they walk into work and they put that aside for the greater good. So I think those were kind of, I felt safe enough to ask questions no matter how silly they may have been. And they just gave me all the time in the world, which was amazing because at the end of the day, like no matter who you are, no matter if you're female or male, like you want your juniors to become better than you because that makes you look good, right? So it's what I try to do on my end as well. Still loads to learn, but yeah.

Tarek: One of the themes that jumps out at me in hearing your story is something that you just mentioned actually, which is challenging yourself and obviously the travel component. And I want to close by getting into your hobbies a little bit because I know that you've traveled around the world and you are a huge outdoor enthusiast. I know you're going to Banff here next week. And I was just kind of looking at your background and you've hiked Kilimanjaro, Death Valley, Torres del Paine in Chile, which is absolutely gorgeous. And you said that the Virginia triple crown loop nearly killed you. So let's hear about that a little bit.

Amaryllis: So that ironically, so I was not particularly athletic for a very long time. It wasn't something I was interested in. And about a decade ago, just over a decade ago, one of my friends invited me to go do the Laris Trail in Peru with her. And it was a four-day backpacking, just straight out of no hiking whatsoever into four-day backpacking in high altitude. That was quite a trip. That was, that was a crazy trip. But we came back from that and we were like, well, that was fun. Let's do it again. And it became kind of an annual tradition to be hiking at least once a year. And the second hike that we did was in Virginia. And we thought with one hike under our belt that we could just go out with zero help, get all our stuff by ourselves and just go for a three-day hike. And it should have been a note of caution that we couldn't quite figure out the mileage for the triple crown loop because it actually combines three different trails, but it left out the connecting trails. So we thought it was around 37 miles, which was totally achievable in three days. But we got on the trail, I think it was like a Thursday afternoon, 2 p.m. The minute we start, a gust of wind blows and our map just goes flying out of our hand. And we're like, okay, onwards we go. We don't need that. We can read signs. And then the first day we end up doing, God knows, 14, 16 miles. We're not able to set up camp until 10 o'clock at night. We find visitors along the way and go hiking with different people. And then the second day was also equally brutal because it was a lot of rocky terrain, just a lot of not easy ground to cover. And that also must have been another 15 to 18 mile day. And then the third day, which should have been the easiest day, we got lost again. And we ended up going somewhere that was clearly unnecessary, but we just couldn't figure the way out. And I just remember it was nighttime and my friend was hangry, like hangry. And when she gets hangry, you don't stop her, you just let her do her thing. But she thought it'd be a great idea to just like, wherever we were, just like stop what we're doing and start cooking on the stove and literally inviting all the creatures around who could smell the food coming out. And so we stopped for that and we ended up, instead of 37 miles, it somehow ended up being 52 miles.

Tarek: Oh gosh.

Amaryllis: We were so delayed. We came off the mountain at half 10. Because we covered so much ground, my legs were just not, I couldn't walk. Like my legs had swollen to twice their size.

Tarek: Oh goodness.

Amaryllis: Like we would have called an ambulance if we had cell service, but we didn't have cell service. So we ended up-

Tarek: What was going through your mind at the time?

Amaryllis: Honestly, I was ready to just sit on the side. So we got off the mountain and it was 10, 10 30 at night. And I was just ready to sit on the side of the road and just go to sleep. That's where my mind was at the time. And we hitchhiked because that seems like a safe thing to do for two women at half 10 at night. And thankfully we fell on a friendly face and he took us back to the hotel, which was completely out of his way. But obviously, when you see two stranded strangers in the middle of nowhere, you probably should help out a little bit. So we ended up doing 50 plus miles that ended up on a Sunday, fly back home. And Monday is the beginning of Comex week. And obviously it's September beginning of Comex week. I can't walk and I'm entertaining clients. And I'm going all around New York city with flip-flops on because I couldn't wear shoes. And it was a pretty miserable experience. And I'll never let my live that one down. And yet somehow I have still joined her every year since for another hike.

Tarek: And lessons learned. What are the lessons learned?

Amaryllis: Lessons learned. If you see a lot of red flags, you should probably stop and turn around. Um, and you should also have multiple maps. That's, that's a good lesson.

Tarek: Well, Amaryllis, you know, we, we've obviously had a business relationship now over the last year and we have, you know, just been delighted to, to get to know you and your team and the great folks over there. And, um, you know, thank you for everything. And for anybody that's interested in following Amaryllis, uh, I recommend, you know, following you on LinkedIn and, you know, staying in contact and, um, make sure you bring your, your bear spray at Banff next week.

Amaryllis: It's true. You have to buy the bear spray there, but yes, I will be prepared.